Hallo, alle miteinander. This is Wright Wednesday, the weekly series where we recap, analyze, and review the various cases of the Ace Attorney franchise. I am Roy, and I want to cosplay Ron DeLite at a convention.
I am Sam, and Ace Attorney doesn't have enough beards for me to cosplay.
This is part of why shaving my beard was such a good idea. We're covering the final part of The Stolen Turnabout today, so let's not waste any more time! The case starts in the Defendant Lobby, where just like the day before, Maya is commenting on the huge crowd in front of the courthouse. But this time, it’s got nothing to do with the trial Phoenix is working on. The murder trial is happening at the same time as the trial for Luke Atmey, being tried for being Mask✰DeMasque, and that’s what everyone really cares about. Ron is super morose about the fact that his arch-enemy is getting way more publicity than him. Going over what was learned the day before in his head, Phoenix notes that this time, they can’t try to run out the clock, since they’re the ones with a time limit, something Maya doesn’t seem to catch the meaning of.
This segment does play with some fun legal concepts. No idea how realistic they are, but what Phoenix is referencing here is a cool way to raise the stakes.
Oh, I will get into that later. Court starts off pretty standard, with Godot already slinging insults at Phoenix. His opening statement is absolutely baffling, so much that basically everyone gives up trying to understand it even after he’s tried clarifying it. Luckily, the Judge is pretty well-versed in the details for the case already. Godot’s first witness is Ron himself, though since he’s the defendant, Phoenix could try and block it. But he doesn’t, remembering the trust Mia showed him during his trial, and deciding to extend that same trust to Ron. Another little thing to tie Phoenix and Ron DeLite together.
True! And again, I think this framing of the "trust your client" adage is kind of nice, if still quite idealistic.
The first thing Ron is asked once on the stand is if he did it, to which he immediately replies, "Yes," only to backpedal and clarify he did not. The Judge was convinced for a second it would be the shortest trial ever. That small farce over, Godot asks for a testimony about why Ron DeLite was at KB Security on the night of the crime.
Ron is as easily flustered as ever.
His testimony is pretty short and simple: he went to the crime scene at 1:00am because he was ordered to by the blackmail letter, and he knew the way because he used to work there. But it’s the cross-examination that brings up more pertinent info. Digging into the topic of the blackmail letter almost makes Ron slip up and reveal the truth about all the other letters he’s gotten, but Phoenix hides it, wanting to save it for a better time in the trial.
Instead, Phoenix asks more about the most recent letter, and learns Ron wasn’t planning on paying the amount requested because he didn’t think Kane Bullard had any evidence that Ron was Mask✰DeMasque. Pressing into the last statement gives some options on what to ask more about, but the right one is to bring up why he was fired. Turns out, that was a bad idea, because Ron was fired for selling company data.
I love how much of this cross-examination is basically just Ron forgetting things or accidentally glossing over them. You don't have to drag the truth out of him so much as just get him talking and wait for him to drop a new bombshell.
So, what’s the problem with what he just said? I mean, aside from it being another crime to throw on his rap sheet. Well, putting those two new facts together makes clear that the victim wasn’t blackmailing Ron about being Mask✰DeMasque, he was being blackmailed about the crime he was fired for. Ron tries to claim he would still have no reason to care about the blackmail threat, but Phoenix points out why he would: Desirée DeLite. After all, she has no clue he ever lost his job, or that he’s turned to crime. She’s the one person he would be absolutely terrified of finding out about his data theft. Godot then spins all of this as a narrative about a woman ruining Ron’s life, which...damn that’s a bad take, bro.
Oof. Yeah, very. Though I do have to wonder why Ron isn't more hesitant to talk about this stuff, considering Dessie is present at the trial.
Yeah, uh, I don't really get that either. Like, is she just not there, actually? Can she not hear his testimony? It's very unclear.
Anyway, the next testimony is about what happened when Ron reached the office. He tells the court about the mysterious person who hit him in the head the second he entered (whose silhouette totally doesn't give away who it is), and when he woke up the victim was there, dead. Godot tries to threaten Phoenix with more thrown cups of coffee if he goes easy on Ron, but Phoenix professionally rebuffs the comment, making it clear that he trusts his client.
This isn't the only time the series does this "mystery silhouette murderer" thing, and like...it's a testament to the game's sprite work and character design that it doesn't work, but you'd think they could...blur it or something?
They should hire the shadowy murder person from Danganronpa, seen here!
I...am confused, but I do need to play that.
It's a thing that Danganronpa and Detective Conan/Case Closed do. By showing the killer in hypothetical scenarios as the mystery shadow person, they give no clues to the audience as to Whodunnit.
Ah, interesting. Would certainly help keep the secret better!
Back to the game we are talking about. One odd statement in the testimony has Ron say that it was a good thing he had "that" on, since otherwise the blow could have been much worse. What does he mean by "that"? Well, a Press gives the answer: his Mask✰DeMasque costume, complete with metal face mask. This surprises everyone, including Phoenix, since Ron had completely failed to mention he’d shown up to the office dressed that way. It’s almost like a reverse version of the thing where witness’s conflate people in costumes with the people who play them, and not mentioning it.
I do have to admit I tire of the anime trope of characters saying, "Well because of...*that*..." as though that's an even remotely natural way to reference an unknown factor, but I also still enjoy Ron just accidentally leaving out details that are super obvious and important, and only accidentally stumbling into them with Phoenix's prompting.
I will say I at least think it fits with Ron, because he is kind of an airhead. He's like the twink version of a himbo. Which the internet tells me is a himbim.
That's...an excellent description, actually.
Digging for more details about why he was wearing the Mask✰DeMasque costume has Ron casually bring up that he’s the famous thief, confusing the Judge. After all, he thinks the real Mask✰DeMasque is being tried next door to them, in a different courtroom. But after that, Ron says something about how the cape of the costume made something take a lot longer, and when Pressed harder, he casually reveals that he was the one who hid the victim’s body in the safe, though the cape made that more difficult. Now, this was something Ron told us the day before, but for everyone else this is a bombshell, and one that makes Ron look way worse. The fact Phoenix already knew about it isn’t great for their look either.
The amount of times prosecutors have been treated like villains for holding back this kind of incriminating information makes this feel a little weird, not gonna lie.
It took ten minutes for Ron to hide the body, and he says he did it because, the second he saw it, he knew people would think he was the murderer. But the issue of timing makes Phoenix think about something. After all, we know the emergency buzzer was pressed around the time of the murder, and there’s no way Ron would waste ten minutes hiding the body with that loud alarm blaring, knowing from his experience as a chief of security that a team would be on its way to the office. Phoenix is able to counter every rebuttal Godot has, and claims that the truth is that Ron was unconscious while the buzzer was going off. Thus, there had to be someone else in the room. It becomes pretty clear to me, with how Godot talks as he scrambles to get out of this hole, that he doesn’t care if Ron did it or not, he really is just prosecuting this case to screw over Phoenix.
Pretty much. Which is an impression we've gotten from the previous prosecutors too, at one point or another, but it did turn out to be deeper than that. I don't remember if it does for Godot or not.
I'd argue that even Franziska, for all her faults, clearly took her role as prosecutor seriously, and was trying to fulfill its duties 'perfectly'. Godot don't care about none of that.
The best Godot can do is say that the victim, with the last ounces of his strength, must have pressed the buzzer, but there are no fingerprints on it, so that can’t be right. After all, the victim died with bare hands. Phoenix really looks like he’s on a roll, only to faceplant when the Judge pokes a hole in his argument: why would the real killer press the buzzer? Thinking through the details once more, Phoenix realizes what happened. The killer purposefully pressed the button to call security, since once he left the room it would just be Ron and the dead body there. Ron would be arrested right away, in that case. The question from there is: who is the real killer? Considering all we know, it’s pretty obvious. Ace Detective, Luke Atmey, is the real killer.
I have to admit, I love his overall plot here. It's just bonkers enough to be peak Ace Attorney and just plausible enough to still be believable.
Phoenix lays it all down: Luke Atmey isn’t, and never was, Mask✰DeMasque. He only used that as a way to give himself an alibi. After all, grand larceny is a far less serious crime than murder. Getting a Guilty verdict would protect him, strangely enough. Godot brings up that, what with how Atmey confessed, his trial should be almost over already. Thus, if they want to bring Atmey in before he gets that alibi, they have to do it right away. Considering how high-profile that trial is, it’s a serious thing to interrupt it, and if Phoenix isn’t able to prove his allegations, there could be serious penalties. Ron makes it clear that he believes Phoenix can do it, and he gets another vision of Mia, like he did at the end of Turnabout Goodbyes, as she reminds him to believe in his client. This galvanizes Phoenix to request Atmey be brought in, consequences be damned.
Bold move, but expected from Phoenix.
As that court goes into recess, we cut over to Courtroom No. 5, where we see Payne is the one prosecuting Atmey’s case. There’s also a different judge, a first for the series (this one has a blond beard with no moustache part of it, and looks like he has more hair). Just before the verdict is read, Phoenix appears to throw the court into chaos and accuse Atmey of being not a thief, but a murderer. Also, this other judge is Canadian.
Oh, I didn't notice that detail. Canadian judge then, alright!
After some musing about why Atmey would kill Bullard, Phoenix and Maya return to the courtroom and Atmey returns to the stand. Admittedly, he plays the part of a master thief well; his narcissistic persona fits the archetype much better than Ron DeLite’s nervous outbursts.
An Ace Actor as well?
Based on how he's sweating after Phoenix calls him out of his trial, he's about as Ace an Actor as he is an Ace Detective.
Atmey’s testimony is just a re-iteration of what we determined last court session; he stole the urn, and the camera caught him in the act at the same time the murder occurred. In Pressing his statements, the idea of an accomplice comes up, but Phoenix can’t prove it; rather, he suggests there’s something strange about the paint spill in the security photo. More specifically, the statue of Ami Fey was there on the night of the crime, but doesn’t appear in the photo.
Another time when it's seemingly entirely based on Phoenix's testimony.
I mean the prosecution trusts Phoenix implicitly, obviously.
The statue was in another spot the next morning, so clearly it was moved at some point during the night. When and why that was done could sink Phoenix’s whole argument. So he posits that Atmey moved it to cover up for the fact that he had this security picture taken days ahead of time, before the statue had arrived and been placed over the paint stain. Had the statue been there the morning after the murder, this inconsistency would have been obvious, so he moved it that night so the room would match with his photo.
The moral of the story: security photos should have a date in the time-stamp.
Honestly yes, this kind of boggles my mind.
Atmey brings up that the security data from that night confirms that the camera did indeed go off, but Phoenix reminds him that the program that runs it came from Atmey himself, and thus could easily have been tampered with. But Godot is not phased; as long as this is merely a possibility, he’s confident it means nothing. So he tells Atmey to testify about the heist itself. If he’s on the level, his explanation will make sense and Phoenix’s wild theories can be dismissed.
I think that might be on of Godot's bigger strengths: he gets upset far less than any previous prosecutor.
The main point in Atmey’s testimony is that he had never seen the urn before the night he supposedly stole it, but Phoenix points out that the calling card Mask✰DeMasque sent ten days before the crime described the urn as “speckled,” referring to the paint stains that weren’t part of the urn until Adrian Andrews dropped it the day it arrived at Lordly Taylor. So clearly, he must have seen the urn after its arrival, and before writing the note; more specifically, the night he staged the security photo.
Weirdly, it's another scenario where Phoenix's testimony is taken at face value, and even one that could easily have been proven if challenged (since the flyer for the exhibit shows the urn without the speckles, still in the messed up form from when Pearl dropped it).
That, and it's kind of a tough contradiction to notice if you didn't even remember that you can read the calling card.
True, this is one of the few points in the case I had to look up a guide.
Phoenix thinks there’s something fishy about the blackmail letter, despite being found in Ron’s apartment and being confirmed to be in Bullard’s handwriting. He points out that the blackmail letter references a “red jewel” Mask✰DeMasque received, but the only jewel Mask✰DeMasque stole, the Tear of Emanon, is blue. The only red jewel in this equation…is the one Atmey was gifted for solving one of Mask✰DeMasque’s cases. The one he wears conspicuously on his finger. The blackmail letter was originally addressed to him, not DeLite.
I have seen quite a few people who were confused from the beginning, or knew the letter was for Atmey, the second they first read it. That color of the diamond issue is pretty conspicuous.
Godot points out that the letter also references revealing the recipient’s “true identity,” which doesn’t fit Atmey if he wasn’t actually Mask✰DeMasque. Phoenix claims that Atmey’s “secret identity” in this case was as a blackmailer himself; specifically, the one blackmailing Ron DeLite and orchestrating his heists.
When asked to prove how Atmey could have discovered Ron’s identity as Mask✰DeMasque, Phoenix points out the newspaper article with the image of Ron in a security outfit, and that Atmey could easily have seen through that and realized who he is. Atmey breaks down at this point, rambling about how great he is and how he’ll get away with all of it.
Atmey is a man of many skills. A poker face is not one of them.
But despite Atmey basically confessing in that moment, Godot swoops in with some classic Ace Attorney Prosecutor nonsense; despite proving his story was a lie, and the purpose of that lie was to set Ron DeLite up as the murderer of Kane Bullard, and Atmey just rambled out an unhinged rant about how he totally did it all and will get away with it, Phoenix apparently also has to prove that Atmey was at KB Security on the night of the murder. And he can’t.
I mean, he didn't specifically say he committed the murder, but you are right that he's still mad sus.
What’s more, since Phoenix can’t prove Atmey’s guilt here, he’ll be found Guilty of thievery in the other trial. This becomes a Double Jeopardy situation; someone can’t be tried for the same crime after being found innocent, so even if Ron is found innocent, Atmey could not be convicted of Bullard’s murder if he's instead convicted for the theft of the urn.
That is not at all how Double Jeopardy works, but I can cover that more later. Just know now, what is happening here is complete nonsense.
It's a cool plot device to serve in Atmey's plot and raise the stakes, but it's not exactly realistic.
It seems all hope is lost, but at the last moment, it’s time for another Deus Ex Mia! She tells Phoeinix not to give up, and tells the Judge that Atmey’s final remarks should be treated as a statement that Phoenix can use as one final cross-examination; specifically, expanding on the details of exactly what he claims he and Ron had done.
I do really like this cross examination, it's a neat idea for a final challenge.
Atmey’s final testimony is a detailed account of his own actions, and how they relate to Ron’s. But the Judge only gives Phoenix one chance to get this right, and without any evidence to contradict this testimony, Phoenix is limited to Pressing Atmey on a single statement. So when Atmey says that Ron DeLite was wearing his Mask✰DeMasque costume at Bullard’s office, Phoenix points out that this information wasn’t known until DeLite’s testimony earlier today; while Atmey was in his own trial! The only way he could have known this detail was if he saw DeLite at the scene of the crime. Once again, Atmey breaks down, for good this time.
It's really interesting, because his testimony other than that mistake is a pretty solid explanation. If you miss that key detail that he shouldn't know, it's a truly difficult final struggle.
It is. I saved right beforehand and messed up a few times.
What’s more, Ron DeLite has already been proven innocent of the thefts of Mask✰DeMasque, which means that, due to the aforementioned (and butchered) rule of Double Jeopardy, he cannot be tried again and is, legally, innocent of all Mask✰DeMasque’s heists.
That actually isn't butchered. Because he was declared Not Guilty of those crimes, he can't be prosecuted for them again. I'll get to that more in analysis.
After the trial, Mia tells Phoenix that Maya is conflicted about her future, because accepting her role as the Master of the Kurain Channeling Technique means accepting that her mother isn’t coming back. With that, she cedes control back to Maya, who immediately gets on Ron’s case for not being happy about his verdict. But he knows that Dessie will hate him now that she knows he’s a thief, so he expects his marriage is over. Following an on-the-nose metaphor about a broken bowl, Phoenix shows Ron the urn that Dessie found, because she believes in him, and assures him it will be fine.
Poor guy can't even bring himself to celebrate getting away with four counts of grand larceny.
Thankfully, when Dessie shows up she’s her normal self; turns out she just hates sneaky cowards, and since Ron announced his crimes before committing them, he doesn’t fall into that camp. “Chivalry,” she calls it, and she’s happy that living with him is so full of excitement. She’s complimenting Wright until he blushes, which is of course when Pearl shows up and slaps the sense out of him for flirting with someone other than Maya. And the case ends on an image of Maya and Pearl happily looking at the mended vase.
What a (mostly) sweet ending! But now it's analysis time! Start us off, professor!
Alright! Well let's start with the continuing theme of masks and deception, because it seems to still be the main thread throughout this.
The more specific thematic throughline I'm seeing at this point is the different ways in which deceptive people can be unmasked. The intro case was a story of Mia Fey unmasking Dahlia Hawthorne because she already knew who she really was, and had but to prove it. But Dahlia was pretty perfect at maintaining her mask; it barely slipped even when she admitted defeat.
This trial, however, has three major players who are part of this theme; Ron DeLite, Luke Atmey, and Godot. Ron has been pushed into a situation of dishonesty, but is at his core an honest person, even insecure. He never truly got away with his own deceptions, has trouble keeping up the façade when pressed even now, and caved completely to shout his guilt from the rooftops as soon as keeping up the veil was no longer necessary.
Atmey, on the other hand, is well accustomed to deception; too accustomed, if anything. While Ron's insecurity guides his compulsive honesty, Atmey's narcissism is his guiding light. This means his mask stays on, even when things get bad, even when everyone sees him for what he really is. You'll notice his breakdowns never truly admit the truth, and even when they come close, they never admit defeat. His first is a false admission entirely, his second is an unhinged rant about how he'll get away with it, and his third is a repeat of the first (which makes no sense in this new context). Atmey's ego is a glass cannon, always firing on all cylinders but easily broken when Pressed, even if he'll never outwardly tell you when that happens.
Then we have Godot. We can't say a ton about him yet, because we know so little, but as far as we can tell the weaknesses of these two characters' personas are nowhere to be seen with him. He's here to prove a point, to defeat Phoenix Wright, and to that end his performance never wavers. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, reveals who he truly is.
That's a really overview! I do have a few things to add to it. First, that while the last case had a character wearing a metaphorical mask, in this one it's all about a literal masked character. For a while, it seemed as though the man who claimed to be the famous thief was a liar, and the real Mask✰DeMasque was the great detective. At the end, it becomes clear that Ron had been telling the truth from the start, if not exactly the whole truth, while Atmey was even more deceptive than first expected.
Second, I actually really disagree with what you said about Atmey's monologue the second time. I think the new context fits it really well. Originally, we were meant to take what he said literally: he was actually the great thief he appeared to be trying to catch, creating an arch enemy for him to fight. But the second time around, we know the truth: he really was forced to create an enemy worthy of his genius. Not by 'being' Mask✰DeMasque, but by being the man behind the man, the one who made all the plans for the real thief, playing both sides of the angle. Calling himself a "tragic clown" fits even better now. He wasn't just pretending to be an Ace Detective, he was also pretending to be a Phantom Thief, when he was neither. He was a blackmailer and a murderer.
That's entirely fair! I suppose I meant that it was clearly a prepared speech meant to signify his supposed guilt in the crime he framed himself for, rather than the crime he's now found Guilty of committing, but it does ring true regardless. Just in a different way than he intended.
And yes, I think there's an enjoyable irony in the masked character actually being the most truthful of them, and the character who outwardly flaunts who he is being the most deceptive. It heightens the sense that no one is necessarily what they seem, even if they're not actively trying to deceive you, but it's those who hold themselves in the highest regard and intentionally hide who they are who pose the most actual threat.
Can we talk more about Atmey, now that the case is over? Because I really wanna.
Yes, please let's. I love him so much. He's the absolute worst in the best way, a narcissistic asshole that manages to be more entertainingly annoying than actually annoying, but still irritating enough that taking him down a peg is satisfying as hell. And that's a pretty top-tier recipe for an Ace Attorney villain.
I absolutely agree. He is assuredly one of the best villains in the series for me. I saw a poll on the Ace Attorney subreddit today, one about who the best culprit in this game was, and I was in the minority who voted for Atmey. But you know what? I stand by it! The man is everything I love about a great Ace Attorney villain: theatrical, ridiculous on every level, and yet also genuinely competent and intelligent.
He's also one of the villains I feel like we can see a little more depth to, at least with the question of how much of what we saw was real. Is seems to me there are two ways to see Atmey after everything we learn.
Is he a con artist, building up this ridiculous persona as part of his entire plan of playing like he's a great detective? Are all the affectations he put on, all the effects in his lab, just props for a performance? Or is he genuinely like that? Is he someone who thinks himself a complete and utter genius?
In his lab, he comes off like a Renaissance Man if you Examine some of his stuff, making it seem as though he's dabbled in chemistry, music composition, painting, all to great success. Has he spent his life going from one field to another, one passion to another, and his stint as a great detective quickly gave him the idea to take control of his opponent, once he realize Ron DeLite wasn't up to his caliber? I feel like you can read him either way, or in a lot of other ways, though I do personally find the idea of him genuinely being this oddball genius the most fun.
I agree, though I personally lean toward him just being a narcissistic asshole who bit off more than he can chew and got someone killed to save his own skin and ego. Probably just because that seems oddly relevant to certain modern circumstances.
So, this is another case where some of the specific details are vague, and while the culprit did a lot of scheming, there was a lot of unexpected variables that made his plan go off the rails. For that reason, I kind of what to go through what I think Atmey's timeline of events is, and we can see where we might have seen it differently.
At some point Atmey decided to be a private detective. He investigated Ron's crime and quickly deduced who he was. Then, instead of turning Ron in, he sent him blackmail letters and plans for further robberies. This was, Atmey could sell the treasures himself, and give Ron a small cut of the profits.
That was working well, until the CEO of KB Security found out who was behind this, though we don't know how, and sent a blackmail letter to Atmey. Not wanting to let his beautiful scheme crumble, Atmey concocts a plan. Without letting Ron know, he is hired by Adrian Andrews to protect the Sacred Urn, and thus chooses the worthless item as a fake theft to give him a potential alibi. Sends in the calling card, sets up the fake photo of MaskDeMasque stealing the urn, the whole shebang. Then, he gets to the meeting with Kane Bullard early and kills him, and knocks out Ron when he arrives.
That done, he hit the alarm buzzer and escaped, hoping the arriving security crew would immediately arrest Ron. But they never show, Ron hides the body, and now Atmey is in a real pickle. No one knows that Kane is dead yet, and the fall guy escaped being arrested.
So, when the investigation into the theft begins, he gives obvious clues to Phoenix about him actually being Mask✰DeMasque, in the hopes he can be blamed for the theft, giving him an alibi for the murder, while finally getting Ron arrested for it. I assume that, before this plan took a detour, the fake theft was an alibi in the form of him being down in the basement as part of his job.
Ah, that makes sense. It's definitely clear that the mystery as we experienced it was quite different from Atmey's original plan, and I think your outline makes sense. It is some legitimately clever maneuvering on Atmey's part, though ultimately not enough to save the plan (thanks in no small part to Larry's negligence and lady troubles).
Speaking of the famous thief, I did want to talk more about Ron as Mask✰DeMasque. While Luke Atmey may have been making the plans behind most of the heists, Ron is still the one who created the costume design, started the modus operandi, and stole the first treasure all by himself. Not only that, he was able to carry out the plans Atmey gave him, implying that he's a pretty fit person who had strong thief skills initially. So while Atmey is the man behind the man, Ron should still get more credit than he usually does from a lot of fans.
That's fair, actually. I hadn't considered that all the branding and design was Ron's doing, which is pretty impressive. I think he missed his calling as a character designer or something.
Well, when you look around his apartment, the dude has clearly been immersing himself in that world to make this work. He had tons of books about famous thieves, mostly fictional ones, and he clearly put a lot of work into making himself the best thief he could.
I also love the end of the trial. He just looks so innocent as he brings up that, since he already got a Not Guilty before, even though he really is Mask✰DeMasque, he can't be arrested for those crimes now. Godot's simple, "I've been careless" in response was also pretty perfect to me, like he just realized what he's allowed to happen.
Oh for sure. It's a very satisfying ending to the case in a number of ways, and Ron/Dessie are so dang adorable.
They are! But that also brings up Double Jeopardy, and I feel like I should cover that for real now.
If you didn't know, the legal term Double Jeopardy refers to the fact that, at least in the USA's legal system, once you are declared Not Guilty of a crime, that is the end of the story. You cannot be tried for that crime ever again. You can be tried for similar crimes not covered in that initial trial, but those charges are lost forever. This is in contrast to Guilty verdicts, which are not so permanent. As I'm sure most people know, you can get a Guilty verdict overturned by a higher court, and it can be pardoned by certain government officials.
Let's assume that Ron's initial trial was him being charged for four counts of grand larceny, which is what I assume the charges would be considering the urn wasn't actually worth anything. But it was connected to the other crimes, so the prosecution's entire case was built on evidence for that theft. Ron got a Not Guilty, so he can't be charged with the grand larceny of those expensive treasures ever again. That is seemingly legitimate.
But the first time it's brought up is nonsense. The way they talk about it, it's treated as though getting a Guilty verdict for those larceny convictions would automatically make him Not Guilty of the murder, therefore Double Jeopardy would apply. But that is just not how things work. He could get a Guilty verdict, but like I said it can be overturned, and strong enough evidence would make using that as an alibi for the murder irrelevant. I know the series plays fast and loose with the law a lot, but it's usually consistent with how it does that. The ways in which this iteration of the legal system is different from ours is firmly established. But I don't feel like this bending of terms works the same way, at least not for me.
That's fair. I can see the logic in it; theoretically, if Atmey is found Guilty of a crime, he couldn't logically be found Guilty of a different crime that took place somewhere else at the same time. But as we often find out the hard way in these games, that kind of logic doesn't necessarily dictate how things work legally, so it does seem a bit of a stretch.
I do think it's a pretty fantastic plot device, but perhaps it would have worked better if they hadn't tried to shove it into an existing and inapplicable legal term.
I can see that perspective, and I think that would have particularly worked if they'd framed it as "it will be hard to convict him for murder if he gets that Guilty verdict" and not "Double Jeopardy would make it completely impossible". I just couldn't enjoy it as a plot device when I was trying to understand how it was supposed to make any sort of sense.
That makes sense. They didn't need to butcher an actual legal term to do the "if we don't get him Ron is doomed" bit.
Hey, what did you think about the Phoenix hearing Mia's spirit before she actually showed up bit?
I mean...I'm not sure it fits with how this is supposed to work, but it's hard to be mad about that when she's still just being used to swoop in and pull a victory out of Phoenix's ass. I'm not a fan of how she's used as a predictable eleventh-hour plot device, so it all just kind of blends into that frustration for me.
I totally get that. I am of two minds about it myself. Now, this is actually the second time Phoenix has heard Mia's spirit without her being channeled. The last time was during a critical juncture of Turnabout Goodbyes. It won't be the last time it's used either, and I appreciate them bringing it in here to remind us it's a thing. I also like the implication that, lack of channeling abilities or not, Phoenix carries Mia's legacy so strongly he can seem to hear her anyway. There is another way of interpreting it of course, that Mia's spirit has nothing to do with it, and it's more Phoenix's subconscious giving him hints with Mia as the vessel. That line of thinking actually fits the rules of Spirit Channeling as they are laid out later in the series better.
But all of that is less impactful because, not long after that, Mia actually shows up for real, thanks to Maya. I absolutely agree that was unnecessary, another example of Mia swooping in to do something Phoenix could have, to make the situation artificially more tense. The only thing I can say in defense of Mia's appearance was some foreshadowing that came with it, though that won't bear fruit until the fourth case.
The event carries some interesting implications, for sure, I just wish they'd put a little more effort into writing her involvement instead of just having her show up to tell Phoenix not to lose so he doesn't lose.
Once again, it would have carried so much weight if Mia hadn't appeared as a spirit since Turnabout Goodbyes, as we've said before.
I can agree with that. I kind of wish they'd just changed their entire approach to her appearances at this point, to be honest, but this is what we've got. Hopefully it's used better in the final case, considering...*gestures wildly to entire final case*
Ohhhhh boy oh boy, that is going to be interesting when we get to it.
There's actually something else that ties this case to that one, and that's the final testimony here. Something really cool about it, from a gameplay perspective, is that for several lines of dialogue, Godot says the same thing no matter which one you Press. It only becomes clear you got the right one if you stick with it, and let Phoenix jump in to show why he's right. That's something they do in the last case of this game too, and I think it's an interesting choice. From what I understand, it's something done to make 'save scumming', as it's called when one saves right before a vital choice and reloads every time they get it wrong, less viable.
It definitely makes it less clear whether you've made the right choice off the bat.
That said, failing that is an instant game over anyway, which gets back into the issues we've discussed before about annoyingly huge setbacks in the original versions, where you could only save before trials and during recesses. Save scumming isn't much of an option anyway when the game insta-kills you for picking the wrong choice and makes you reload all the way to the beginning of the segment.
I could be remembering incorrectly, but I believe in the original versions you could save anywhere, there was just a lengthy process to get back to where you were, heading back to the home screen and needing to go back to your save. But I have the ability to go check, which I will do now.
I hereby declare a recess. We will reconvene in 10 minutes, at which point Roy will have investigated the matter and will present his findings.
Recess over! I testify that, on the original (to North America) Nintendo DS, the original trilogy does let you save nearly whenever you want (I don't think you can save when the picking evidence in the Court Record screen is up). But if you save somewhere that isn't a designated save point, it has to be a Save and Quit, sending you back to the main menu. But it isn't like a mid-battle save in some of the Fire Emblem games, where the save is only one use.
Now, the thing is, there is no load save button, so you have the restart the game to load your save. So, the way save scummers would work is by saving right before the important choice, or during the cross examination, then restarting the game to go back to before the choice. With testimonies especially, the strategy would be to wait if the music stopped or you got a different response from a wrong one, and if you didn't, restart your game. By making the pass and success paths similar for a few lines, it would confuse save scummers, who would end up restarting even when they got it right.
Makes sense. So it's more of a pain in the original, but it does work. I suppose I had gotten the "must quit to save" option mixed up with old timey quick save options that made you quit, then erased the save when you loaded it back up so you couldn't actually use it like a real save.
In any case, I think this is an effective way to combat save scumming, But also, frankly, I think combating save scumming is kind of an old school design decision to begin with. There's little true purpose and stopping the player from guessing, especially in a game like this where they probably are trying to figure it out at first, and now can easily look up guides if they fail to. Mostly I just think it's an interesting way to keep the player on their toes, since we've spent the whole series getting accustomed to the idea that the right answer is the one that immediately diverges from an otherwise predictable script given universally to all wrong answers. Save scumming or no, it does maintain that tension a little longer instead of relieving it the moment you hear the music stop.
I agree there, and I also think it's a good character moment that, even when Phoenix is doing the right thing, Godot is still acting as though he's failing, until Phoenix steps up and makes it clear that he knows what he's doing. I suppose that is one way to look at Godot's antagonism to Phoenix: by having someone who sees and treats Phoenix like a rookie, despite his many accomplishments thus far, it gives a chance to show how much Phoenix has grown into his role, something I feel like happens quite a bit across this game.
That's an interesting way to look at it! I'll keep an eye out; it's tough to show growth in some ways, since the gameplay sorta relies on Phoenix always running into difficult situations that the player needs to figure out (until Apollo Justice, that is), but I could certainly see that happening here.
I would argue this game does go out of its way to give Phoenix several moments like that down the line, though this case was a bit lighter on them in particular. I'd also argue that they always had some trouble developing Phoenix in a way they didn't with later protagonists. For all of them, and for a lot of characters in this series, I would argue the development shows most in actions and smaller details, rather than obvious stated changes. That's actually one of the things I like about it. I prefer it when a series kind of makes characters the way they are, and lets you see in them what you're able to.
I'm here for that. I'm looking forward to the rest!
To dip into the less fun parts of this case, I have to come back to that list we found in the victim's office. You know, the one listing the treasures Mask✰DeMasque stole, some prices that didn't look right to Gumshoe, and a bunch of other info about the thief? So, uh, what was that? No, seriously, what was that? It is never covered at all, and I've seen quite a few fellow fans also perplexed as to what that was supposed to be about. Like, clearly the info about Mask✰DeMasque was Kane Bullard investigating Atmey to figure out who to blackmail, but what about the prices? They're too low to be how much the items are actually worth, but they also don't match the numbers we know Atmey gave Ron for them. Are they how much each theft cost KB Security? Are they actually how much Atmey was able to sell them for, and Gumshoe was just wrong? I have no clue what that list is supposed to mean!
When we first found it, I assumed they were the cuts the blackmailer demanded, but yeah it just...never came up. Which is super weird. These games are usually better about not wasting space. It's not even a red herring, just a thing that doesn't matter.
A lot of people, including me, also immediately thought it was related to the blackmail letters, but all but the last one were from Atmey, not Kane, and like I said the numbers don't seem to match up. The list says for the Tear of Emanon $100,000, but Ron specifically says he was sent $10,000 for that treasure. It's not a huge deal, just something weird and frustrating I can never let go when I replay this case.
I too am annoyed they provided such an interesting puzzle piece, then just left it out.
Well, it's time to talk about the case's quality in more detail then, because it's review time! Like Turnabout Sisters and Reunion and Turnabout before this, The Stolen Turnabout is an Establishing Case. What does that mean, exactly? Well, as the name I gave the category implies, Establishing Cases do a lot of the heavy lifting for establishing what this game in the series is going to be about. It's primary roles, from most important to least important are to: show the player how Investigation segments work, most often with a more simplistic location structure than the cases that follow it; introduce the Assistant(s), Detective, and Prosecutor/Rival for the game, whether they're new or returning, to the player, and make it clear why they're worth caring about or paying attention to; set up the thematic and/or plot elements that are unique to this game in the franchise specifically; be a good story in and of itself. How do you think the case handled all of that, Sam?
It's a weird one. I think it accomplishes those goals fine, but the Establishing Cases in the first two games both dealt with very plot-important events. Turnabout Sisters sets up pretty much the whole series, and Reunion and Turnabout deals directly with Maya and her family situation while introducing Pearl. This...feels more like a third case. It interacts only mildly with each of these elements, and while it does introduce all these important characters, it doesn't do as much with them as the previous games did. Maya's role is fairly standard, and Gumshoe is edged out by Atmey. So on this front, it's a real weird case.
I can definitely see your point there, and now that you mention it I think I should have taken out that part about how these cases set up plot/theme elements for the whole game. That was definitely true with the first two, but from this game forward a new trend sets in: either the Tutorial Case or the Establishing Case is the big, plot-important one, but usually not both. So yes, in many ways, this case is more fillery than the last two.
That said, I would not equate this to a Filler Case at all. There are strengths to the fact that the first case was the one to be all plot-important. Since that one was also Mia's case, not Phoenix's, we jump into the story of this game only a little over six months after Justice for All. Phoenix doesn't realize he's starting a new chapter of his life, things feel same old, same old to him. While a little rough in spots, I think this case introduces Maya and Pearl to new players very well on the whole, and it's a crime that it's the only case in the series with both of them serving as Assistant at the same time. Gumshoe's rivalry with Atmey immediately sets him up as the lovable goof compared to the private eye's snobbishness. We've talked about Godot's intro at length, but I at least do think they get across the major aspects of his character pretty well: he's mysterious, he's laid back, he hates Phoenix, he drinks coffee, and he uses really confusing metaphors. Oh, and he doesn't like women, though that's more implied so far.
Not only that, but the fact this thievery is centered around the Sacred Urn in a treasure exhibit all about Kurain Village means, even if we don't visit the location itself, the story is clearly establishing that element of Maya's character, reoccurring the theme from the last two Establishing Cases, which also went into Fey stuff to some extent. It's even more important this time around, because this game's final case is all about that exact topic, and several of the artifacts shown off here will became relevant then.
True! The game does cover the important beats, just differently than the previous ones did. This case ends up feeling less overall plot-important as a result, but combined with the intro case it does it's job just fine.
Though I'm not sure how I'll feel about the entire middle of the game feeling fillery. We'll see next time I suppose.
It's a different approach, and it might not be for everyone. Personally, I quite enjoyed the fact that, for the first time so far, Maya didn't spend the entire Establishing Case in the Detention Center. I hear the next time she gets arrested for a crime she didn't commit, she can fill out the last punch on her card, get a free coffee.
I definitely get that, and I'm glad Maya didn't get damseled by default in this one.
Just as a story in and of itself, even takings its issues into account, I would say The Stolen Turnabout is wonderfully executed. It has one of the most solid casts of new characters in the series, with the DeLites being absolute delights and Luke Atmey being one of my favorite villains in the series. I adore the Mask✰DeMasque aesthetic, it's really interesting having a non-murder trial for the first half of things, and the way it separates into two distinct trials over different crimes is a great way to make each day feel like it meant something, like the case wasn't spinning its wheels.
I agree, despite a few issues the core mystery here is very solid, with some great characters and clever twists. I honestly wasn't sure how I would feel about this one on replay, since I don't remember this game very well, but I really enjoyed it.
On the whole, my biggest issues with this case are the areas where the plot feels a bit too fuzzy and poorly thought out, and the Flanderization of Larry Butz that really begins here, in a terrible way. Other than that, this is one of the most solidly fun cases in the Ace Attorney series. It's rarely exceptional, but it's often wonderful, if that makes any sense.
We rate these cases on a very relative scale. They aren't attempts to qualify how objectively good or bad a case is, but rather how good or bad it is in relation to all other cases in the series. So a 10 would be one of the best in the series, a 1 among the worst, and 5's and 6's are the middle area, the averages. On that kind of scale, for all the reasons I mentioned before, I give The Stolen Turnabout a 7 out of 10. It's not quite in the highest tier of cases, but it is still really good, and above average for sure
I think I'm actually gonna outdo you a bit and give it a 7.5! Overall I think a 7 is probably deserving (and I'm aware I'm generally scoring higher than you, so my "case quality relative to one another" spectrum might be off in the end), but I give The Stolen Turnabout some extra credit for being as good as it is without being one of the major story-centric cases. With the exception of Reunion and Turnabout, this trilogy has a pretty solid precedent for the cases dealing with main characters being the best, and the filler cases running between decent and awful. But while this case isn't technically filler, I think it fits that distinction better than the others, and it's leagues better than either Turnabout Samurai or *shiver* Turnabout Big Top. Unless the next case is a real banger, The Stolen Turnabout is probably going to be my favorite filler case in the trilogy by a decent margin, so I think it deserves an extra half point for that distinction.
I still don't really see it as filler, but I otherwise see what you mean. This case is absolutely lovely, and it was a lot of fun to play it again. For those who don't remember, I also gave Rise from the Ashes a 7, so I will clarify that I do have that case as several places above this one, but I still adore them both. Will the next case be quite as good? We'll have to see next time, as we put on our aprons for Recipe for a Turnabout! Auf wiedersehen!
Until next time!
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